„Call it whatever you want,“ he laughs. „No, no, call it whatever YOU want“ I object. „I take care about the wine there,“ Riccardo Marcon briefly resumes his role of 108's 400-article wine-list keeper. So without much further ado, here we go...

What’s the story behind 108?

It’s Noma’s sister with a more casual approach to dining, a place where you can come just for a two-course lunch or go for the full tasting experience. We’ll have more than 70 seats inside plus at some point an outdoor terrace facing Christianshavn canals, then there’s “the corner” part of the restaurant, a slightly separated coffee and wine bar, where we serve breakfast, because we’ll be open from morning till late with some honest glasses (of wine). We’ll be serving coffee from the window so you can pass by on bike and grab a cup of decent coffee – and when I say decent, I mean it.

And the menu?

The menu changes according to the produce – sometimes it stays the same for a week, sometimes it changes after couple of days. Contrary to Noma, we want to concentrate on á la carte service built around individual servings and “livretter” bigger courses to be shared with the whole table.

So the idea is that guests come to the restaurant, say they feel like eating five courses, they like this and don’t eat that?

Not really, guests can pick what they feel like; everything will be on the menu, so it is pretty straightforward.

So you’ll bring them something that they like.

I don’t know, people going to 108 don’t really come with this like-dislike attitude. Also, we want to defend and protect what we do – if our chef puts something on the menu and we all taste it together that means it's good and we stand for it.

Does 108 focus on the local Scandinavian produce as much as Noma does?

We have our farm, we ferment and preserve, we forage. Of course, 108 comes with the Nordic approach to cuisine, but we’ve decided to make it more contemporary – we call it the “Copenhagen cuisine”. Imagine all the experiences you could have enjoyed in Copenhagen for the past ten years put together. It’s electrifying in terms of innovation but more open – if we want to use an ingredient from Japan, we go for it. It has a Nordic backbone without being dogmatic. Because when something becomes dogmatic, it doesn’t allow you to explore all the possibilities and be really free.

I understand, you don’t restrain yourself. That makes a turn from the Nordic cuisine, though.

I don’t think it’s a turn, I think of it as an evolution, a different approach to the same matter. In my opinion, all institutions can choose from two 2 paths: either they ossify or they evolve. Some people decide to be extremely true to themselves, and that’s fair enough. Creating an onion dish that’s absolutely amazing while using nothing but onion is great, and requires lot of thinking and a lot of skill. But in 108, we go beyond that. This doesn’t mean we are going to serve foie gras and stuff like that; but our horizons aren’t really limited in any way. Koji, miso and kombucha are part of our everyday life. It’s not something you can cook at home, there’s lot of thinking and production behind, yet it is for a reasonable price. I think this is the future of our industry for everybody involved.

Future of your industry?

I think that if you want to really live in your time, you should adapt to the situation. You’d better understand the time you work and live in. I have nothing against fine dining, it is where I come from and what I like sometimes, but when I come home every day, I don’t go to sleep in my jacket, I want to be myself. It’s the same with water – if I’m thirsty, I have some. I think there is a space between the down-to-earth food (which I love, by the way) and fine dining where you can create something that is truly amazing yet doesn’t require all the fanciness around, where the food and people working with it take the stage, not the environment. We want to feed everybody – from 2 to 90 year-olds – from every heritage, of every origin, without being pretentious, which is difficult.

That reminds me of the neobistro concept.

Well, if you want to call it like this, why not. For me, it’s mainly a group of friends doing something together, having fun. That’s what I do. We do it for 108 and for ourselves at the same time. It’s difficult to see where we end and where 108 starts though. It’s something really special, a great rock’n’roll setup. We ran a pop-up at Noma when the restaurant moved to Sydney – with communal tables for everybody, so people who came as a couple ended up eating with company of four. You saw plenty of different people that would probably never sit in the same room if it wasn’t for that event. There was a lot of loud music, energy, and crazy food, like kelp ice cream and so on. Chefs presented the food along with the waiters. You see how the beast gets alive when the service starts.

It sounds like a very close team indeed, based on Noma’s usual suspects, I suppose?

Our man is Kristian Baumann – he was a sous chef at Relae, worked in Noma, he’s super young and so fucking talented, he simply has it. And he’s a friend and a great person! Our head chef José is from Guatemala and has worked at Noma for years. Then there’s Jaime from Chile, again with an amazing CV, Jasper… We have such a talented group of 20 chefs in the kitchen, each with different backgrounds but all great. Jacob Moller, our restaurant manager, has been working in Noma for 10 years. He’s my partner in crime – he’s the good guy, I’m the bad one. I’ve found something that really completes me in him, because with him around, I feel much better. If we are together in the same room, everything will be ok and it’s going to be fun.

You mean its inducing the right kind of energy?

Absolutely, yes. Energy is the word for 108, service is fast, fun, dynamic, having a laugh. We sit down with people to take order from them... no “Madame, monsieur…”, fuck that.

What was your path to Noma and 108?

I got there through London. I got a bachelor’s degree in winemaking, started to make some wine that was pretty terrible, and then realised I should prove myself in the ocean, not just swim in a swimming pool. I worked in Hakkasan Mayfair, met a lot of people, learnt new things, and got some prizes – not that I care about them. My most significant job was head sommelier at Fera at Claridge’s. The hotel is a big institution in central London where people pay thousands of pounds for night and probably expect a classical list with Grand Cru Burgundy and Bordeaux. So it was kind of crazy to end up with a lot of “natural” wines on my wine list. And I was lucky to work with Raphael Rodriguez, a guy that really means a lot to me – one of my best friends, my former flatmate, and the restaurant director at Fera. We’re both very passionate, so the beginning was a little clash, but after it was so difficult to leave. But what can you do when René Redzepi comes to your place and tells you, don’t you want to come to work with us? You just say OK.

So René Redzepi approached you directly?

Well, these are all guys that you meet throughout the year, for one thing or another, be it World’s 50 Best or symposiums and so on. Last time René came to eat to Fera, we had a chat – not about work, but about life and wines in general. Few months later, I got a call from Copenhagen. And last November, I started to work with him.

That means you were already there when Noma held the pop-up in Sydney.

I was in Denmark doing the 108 pop-up, but let me share my very personal view – I couldn’t see Noma going to another place and stay there forever, or Noma just opening another Noma. There’s a massive cultural value in everything Noma does. Lots of people go somewhere around the world cooking the same menu they do at home, and there’s nothing wrong with this. But in Noma, we don’t like easy things, if there’s no challenge, the engine doesn’t really work, you need to be constantly on the edge, be stimulated to give your best. So whether it is a pop-up in Japan, the Australian one or the one that’s going to happen probably next year somewhere else, the idea is always to create something new, to go there and discover ingredients the locals have under their noses but might forget about them or don’t focus on their potential that they really have… Which is not to say that the locals are idiots, not at all - but sometimes you think to be right and then a different perspective opens up your eyes and widens the horizons. I see this as the mission of Noma around the world. The way they do it is just amazing – sending people to the place months before to research and try local ingredients, to meet foragers, etc.

In short, what Noma did for Scandinavia and hospitality in general is just amazing. Some people are gifted and can see things before others. René is one of those people. You know, nobody was sitting at the table and saying “Let’s do the Nordic movement” – it’s just that René started it, more than 10 years ago. And people weren’t really ready for that or for a more casual approach to fine dining where 15 chefs greet you at the same time and say hello even to customers who are 60 years old. At the beginning, colleagues and some local media used to call him a whale fucker, giving him a bad time. But then the whale fucker made it to the 50 Best, and a movement was born.

What is it like to work with him?

We are a team of 100 people – front of house people, chefs, interns who come to work with us for two or three months.. Then there’s the fermentation lab, the test kitchen chefs… it’s a pretty big party. And what is really special about this place – I really haven’t seen it anywhere else – is that every single employee, from the dishwasher to the chef, all of them want to be there. They’re not there because they are still studying, looking for another job or whatever reason. Everybody is happy to be there and they know exactly why they are there. It’s a very emotional and friendly approach – René comes in the morning and the first thing he does is giving high-five to everybody; he really cares about his employees. He’s a great man – which doesn’t mean he’s an easy person. He has a strong personality, and he’s young, full of energy and strength, and always willing to push the limits – he comes in the morning and says “Guys, I’ve been thinking about it, and we can do more, this is not enough.”

The menu and whole concept of newly opened 108 is about freedom, says Riccardo Marcon in first part of our exclusive interview; and it's even more so with “his” wine list and pairing. Regions and wines off the beaten paths include Eastern Europe, their own beer following their current likes and ideas, pairing mixing alcohol as well as non-alcoholic beverages… Because these transgressions open up new perspectives - and you expect no less from the crowd behind ground-breaking Noma!

Let’s talk about the wine list in 108 – how did it come up?

If there’s one word to put to my wine list, it’s “dynamic”. I re-print the wine list every day, and when we run out of something, I just buy something else, and there we go. There will be a great selection of wines by glass: eight to ten, both white and reds, and three sparkling wines every day, changing every day, of course.

We’ve decided to develop a distinctive, honest wine programme in 108. We want to feed everybody, so it’s a place where you can come twice a week for casual lunch or dinner, or grab your friends and go for it big time. We don’t want to patronize, give lesson to anybody. We just want to be an honest place where you get great food and have fun, listen to music, bring your kids, even if they are small – that’s fine. We have a very down-to-earth, human approach to our job, and the wine goes with it. We have a list of amazing affordable wines – not because I do it but because I really think they are great. My approach is based more on my stomach than the brain, that’s for sure – I don’t think too much, it's more about my stomach and feelings.

What does it mean when you put in numbers?

At the pop-up, we had about 1,000 wines – but don’t put that number, that will only scare people. Now I’m thinking of around 300-400 wines – no boundaries, no particular focus on regions. Of course, they will all follow our ethos, and I have a few wine regions I really like, like the border between Slovenia and Italy – both sides of it, Austria, France, especially Loire valley, and Jura or Alpine Regions, but I’m open to everything. And I want to keep an eye on Eastern Europe, and list some Serbian or Hungarian wines, maybe even Czech and Slovak ones. I like Dobra vinice – not all of it, but some of their wines are great. The one that’s called Creme – I could drink a ton of it. Or I appreciate Strekov a lot. Nestarec is doing a pretty good job, too.

Would there be some wine pairing?

Of course, there will be some kind of wine pairing, but 108 is a freestyle concept, so if people feel like drinking more or less, I won’t force them to drink precisely six glasses of wine. If they want to have wine with every course, it’s fine, I have them ready. Every day. The same goes for beer and other stuff.

Beer?

Yes, we make our own beer together with Nørrebro Bryghus in their small site in Copenhagen. We do small, 100% organic, unfiltered batches that you’ll be able to drink only at our place. Right now we have two kinds and soon, there is going to be a third one. The idea is to have a kind of everyday lager, which is actually also its name, something not too aggressive and not to bubbly. And cheap.

Cheap?

Yes, you can get it for the same price as some multinational brand beer. The beers were conceived to be served with the food we prepare, not only on their own. And since we don’t serve only meat, our second beer is a classic British Ale that is a bit bolder in taste, with almost no gas, and not too strong in alcohol. Then there’s going to be a seasonal beer, something funkier or more particular – imagine a sour, or saison style for the summer. We will actually open with just that, a saison brewed with lemon, thyme and ginger. Maybe. Or maybe not, ‘cause this is what I’m thinking now but maybe tomorrow I’ll change my mind and it’s going to be strawberries.

I see the pairing is going to be a very creative flavour odyssey indeed.

You know, this whole idea of matching wine with food… for us, there are no boundaries as long as it makes sense. It mainly needs to taste good. For example, I served the kelp ice cream with beer because it makes sense. Do you really want to add sugar to sugar? Some sommeliers want to match sweetness of the wine with the course, but when the chef thinks the level of sugar is perfect in what is already there, adding sugar to sugar isn’t always the best idea. Sometimes it works, but sometimes you rather match something salty instead or some bubbles to create a texture.

So do you think juice pairing was just a temporary hype started by Noma, and now widespread but going to disappear? Or is it something that is here to stay?

I think it makes sense – it allows even people who don’t drink alcohol to enjoy the food which didn’t exist before. It’s an interesting solution. But the best thing in my opinion is the “contamination” of the two, bringing up unexpected possibilities. If you think a particular course is better with juice, serve it with juice. Alcohol is not always the solution.

Is there any wine you’d put on the wine list no matter what? Just because you love it.

Of course, there are plenty of them. Sometimes I go out and just want to drink a particular wine, no matter what I eat, and it’s fine. Have you ever tried the Brutal Total wine produced by the German born Axel Prüfer?

I don’t, unfortunately.

You should, it’s great. But there are plenty of wines from my winemaker friends I put on the wine list because it’s part of my personal story, such as Christian Tschida, I’ll never create a wine list without him. It’s nearly impossible not to have a wine by glass from him, because he’s a friend and his wines are special; they’re beautiful and clean. I also need to add Saša Radikon, as well as a lot of vitovska and of course Jura, Jura, and Jura, and plenty of Gamay, some funky Aussie wines, Auvergne and Ardeche, Loire… you see there are so many wines out there, so it doesn’t really make sense to name only some of them.

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